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Mum of criminal angry after her law role 'leaked'
Main Post: Mum of criminal angry after her law role 'leaked'
Top Comment: Maybe be angry at raising a shit son? Definitely in the public interest, you can't get to the level of transporting hundreds of millions worth of drugs without close people knowing. Did she really think his lavish lifestyle was funded by a couple of scruffy blokes and a old vuton van?
Would you recommend being a criminal lawyer?
Main Post: Would you recommend being a criminal lawyer?
Can criminal law defense be profitable?
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Does it make sense career wise to work for the public defender for a couple years and then do criminal defense as a solo? My goal is to go solo. But I don’t have a lot of experience Civil or criminal. There is a good job opening with a public defender. I am thinking about taking it to grow my skills. Does it makes sense or will the skills not transfer?
Top Comment: Welcome to r/LawyerTalk ! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of our rules BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as Reddit's rules (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that this forum is NOT for legal advice. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. This community is exclusively for lawyers. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool , r/legaladvice , or r/Ask_Lawyers . I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
Advice needed: How to understand and do well in Criminal Law?
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I’m a 1L and I’m taking criminal law this semester. I’m looking for general advice from current law students who have also taken the course and done well in it.
I read the cases, and brief them, but my professor always ends up asking seemingly “unanswerable” questions - he’s looking for a very specific answer, and my response is always off. No matter how much I prepare for class, or how long I spend reading and understanding the court opinions, I needs seem to fully grasp what the professor expects us to know about the topic, which makes me think that I’m focusing too much on the wrong thing.
Can anyone provide any guidance on how to do well in criminal law? What is best to focus on when reading the cases, supplements to the readings that help understand the concepts, etc.?
Top Comment: Dressler supplement = beat median
Plz—I can’t take crim law anymore
Main Post: Plz—I can’t take crim law anymore
Top Comment: Prof. Dressler's "Understanding Criminal Law" is the best supplement—differentiates between the common law and the MPC on every topic. It's written in treatise format so you'll still have to turn it into your own outline, but it's about as thorough as you can get. Though the common law and the MPC align in certain respects (re: post below mine), there are some crucial differences; the MPC has some complicated variations of the initial aggressor rule for self-defense, and the at-fault exception for the necessity defense.
Anyone work in criminal defense?
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If the paralegal doesn't believe in supporting individuals who ARE guilty of domestic violence, sexual assault, DUI, burglary, grand theft, white collar crimes, etc., would you say it's ALWAYS a bad idea to work for a criminal defense law firm?
I have very mixed feelings and opinions about this, so PLEASE be gentle but honest. On one hand, I think everyone deserves a defense attorney. Sometimes, the clients ARE 100% innocent, or not 100% guilty. Maybe someone else was also involved, etc. On the other hand, I'm wondering how much I personally want to help them if they are causing harm to society -- intentionally.
I'm on the fence about this.
I've known a couple of defense attorneys in the past, socially, and they were the most kind and caring individuals. They worked for the state, and worked as court-appointed defense attorneys. They told me a lot of stories of how vulnerable their clients were as children. Their parents were sociopaths, drug/alcohol addicts, and abusers of every kind. As a result, those kids grew up to be criminals. I mean, I get that. I have compassion and sympathy for adults who have C-PTSD & become addicts due to self-medications.
I'm jumping back into the legal field after being away for 5 years. I was previously a working paralegal. I have a bachelor's degree and paralegal certificate.
I want to do some meaningful work, and I'm looking at my options.
I'm just wondering if I'm putting myself in harm's way by helping attorneys represent some private-pay clients who have committed atrocious crimes. I don't think I want to help an attorney represent a client who committed sexual assault or domestic violence, or intentionally laundered money or stole from an employer.
But, is there something I'm not seeing? I know good people DO make mistakes. But, Are there good people who make the mistake of sexually assaulting someone, especially a child???
Are there good people who make the mistake of stalking someone or intimidating someone and beating them up???
Are there good people who make the mistake of laundering money or stealing money???
I think I am too passionate about my stance and am looking for a neutral and objective pov.
Like I said, I want to do meaningful work, so I have not written off criminal defense. I'm kind of intrigued by it. If the client is actually factually innocent, or if it is their first offense, I would pray for that client myself to be rehabilitated, and would want that client to have the best representation. But, if it is a repeat criminal, I don't know that I want to. Am I being too shortsighted and too judgmental?
Also, I heard from my family law professor that family law is full of drama, and clients can often become quite hostile and aggressive with their own lawyer and the paralegal, saying some awful things to them if the outcome isn't what the client believes they deserve. The professor said that sometimes those clients can threaten or even injure their attorney and staff.
I imagine there are many clients who seek a criminal defense attorney can have some serious mental health issues, which also is a very difficult population to work with. So, they may threaten their attorney or staff. Should I be concerned about that?
Anyway, thank you for reading. Please add your insights into the defense side of criminal law, and the questions you would ask a potential candidate who is interested in working in this area of law.
P.S. PLEASE DO NOT tell me what I would like or not. Or, what my mind is thinking or needing. Or, that I don't have the stomach for it, or that I can't do important work. It's not your job to determine that, and you certainly don't know what I am capable of. I don't want your opinion about me. I know myself better than anyone else, and you certainly don't know me.
What I DO want is your insight into the area of law and what YOUR EXPERIENCES ARE in the field.
Thank you in advance!
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Top Comment: There’s an old saying: “I would rather 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted.” This is just how our system is supposed to work. Guilty people deserve a fair trial and a zealous defense, but it is also about holding government accountable and ensuring that in one of the two areas where government has an unmatched monopoly (criminal justice and the other is defense of the country), we make it difficult for the state to take away life, liberty, or property. Others have discussed the practical aspects of criminal defense, but I wanted to add the philosophical perspective.
Is criminal law exciting?
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It seems to me that competitions are most exciting when both parties have a decent shot at winning. For example, sports competitions are usually most exciting when there's a close game between two good teams.
Criminal law seems to be an area where most of the power and evidence is stacked in favor of the prosecution, and it really isn't a "fair fight" because the defense attorney has to defend a clearly guilty client.
As a new law student considering different types of small law practices (family, criminal, PI, employment, etc), I'm curious if anyone has perspective on which of these is the most fun, exciting, and likely to keep you up at night (in a good way).
Right now, I'm leaning toward family law because they're fighting over emotionally charged issues. Instead of just pushing paper with an insurance company looking for a decent settlement, the client's life, future, and kids are stake, so this adds extra importance and meaning to the fight.
I'm curious if people who have experience in small law type litigation (family, criminal, PI, etc) can comment on which they find the most interesting/ exciting for people who enjoy stimulating challenges.
Top Comment: It’s not exciting when there are severe consequences to the game. It’s stressful and sometimes terrifying. A lot of it is left to chance. It’s part of the reason substance abuse is so rampant.
Any advice or experience leaving criminal law entirely?
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I’ve been in the crim law world since law school, 2 years as an intern and now over 3 years post-bar. I was a prosecutor at first and have been a public defender for the past couple years.
I’m miserable and want to get into another practice area, maybe even leave the law entirely but I’m not quite there yet. I at least want an area of practice that either doesn’t involve litigation, or involves such abstracted litigation that there’s rarely, if ever, open conflict and hostility. I have a ton of trial experience and in a horrible twist of irony I also never want to do another trial again.
I don’t really know where to start. The obvious suggestions are go into private criminal practice (no thank you), insurance defense (where trial attorneys go to die, pass) or family law (known for its lack of conflict, right?).
What are some other places to look? Has anyone been in a similar position and had luck?
Top Comment:
Welcome to r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law.
Be mindful of our rules BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as Reddit's rules (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation.
Note that this forum is NOT for legal advice. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. This community is exclusively for lawyers. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
Criminal law salary story
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A friend of mine in the same area of practice in Chicago was chatting with me in court before the Judge came out to run the call.
The story he told me was hilarious and weird. He had been a successful solo for 2 decades when he decided to hire an associate last year.
She was relatively inexperienced, but had done 2 years as a states attorney.
She came to his office a few months ago and demanded to be paid $140k a year (he hired her at $85k, which was about $20k more than she made as a prosecutor).
He said no and she quit. He's been looking for an attorney to come in but can't find one willing to work for less than $100k.
Most of the guys I know don't pull $140k consistently. My friend told me that last year, he made $130k and wasn't going to pay an associate more than what he makes.
What a weird time. I know you big law guys make more than she did, but in crim law, there are no billables - it's all flat fee. I haven't met a young prosecutor who wants to practice criminal defense who is worth that kind of scratch. Our is arguably the most competitive practice area here, with fewer and fewer arrests.
There used to be a lot of lawyers who worked for the bond. They advocated for the end of cash bail, only to discover that it hurt their business - people will borrow and beg to get out of custody, but not to hire a lawyer. So those guys make up the difference by undercutting everyone else (a case that I would charge $7500 for, they will do for $6000).
In the year before covid, my business had its best year and I cleared $120k. Everything was looking up until the courts shut down and cops had another excuse not to make arrests.
Volume is still down for everyone I know, so asking for $140k a year with 3 years of experience, only 1 as a crim defense attorney, is insane to me.
Top Comment: people's need for a decent salary is driven by student loan payments and the cost of housing. those two things are effectively pricing people out of taking lower-paying legal jobs